The Ellettsville, Indiana
Roll Call:†† Members
present were: †Sandra Hash, President, Terry Baker, Vice
President, Dan Swafford, Don Calvert,
Approval of the Minutes
Can I have liberty to change a few
lines of the minutes, I saw a few comments that didnít really seam
necessary.† Do I have a motion to approve
Swafford- I make a motion to approve
Request to rezone parcel
Doug Curry- Iím with Bynum Fanyo and Associates, Iím a land
surveyor there, and I live in
Sandra Hash- Is there anyone here to speak for or against the rezone?†
Wedemeyer- I live at
Sandra Hash- Would it be appropriate for them to see the map of the site plans?† You are all welcome to come up to see the map.
Tom Burch- This development will be very similar, if not better than the current buildings on the lot.† I work with Kevin West, and he is the developer.
Many people are talking, and itís hard to determine who is speaking or what they are saying.
Thomas Wedemeyer- How would that change the zoning on my property?† My property didnít have a zoning classification when we went through this the last time.† Then they tried to change the area to commercial, and then my area went in as R-1.† Then I was told mine was grandfathered and I couldnít do anything to it.† If I wanted to add a deck is that ok?
Sandra Hash- R-2 is a two family dwelling.†
Tom Burch- The developer wants to sell these condos, he has other rental property, but he wants to sell these.† He may not start building in this area for awhile, considering the economic times we are in.
Gerald Peusz- Couldnít make out his question, he spoke from the audience.Sandy Hash- made note to the audience to come to the podium and sign in.† We rely on the tape recording to do the minutes, and when you speak back and forth with each other we canít hear you.
Tom Burch- The price could range from $100,000 to $125,000.† The buildings with a basement will be more expensive.
Sandra Hash- Sir, we canít hear your question.
Gerald Preusz- My question is has any consideration been made to the traffic coming in and out of these units?† I would like you to think about the people coming from the north come up the hill really fast, and Iím across the street from where they are talking about building.† I have to really watch the traffic coming out of there and you canít see the traffic coming.
Tom Burch- Rick has a plan for a cul-de-sac.
Tom, would units 2, 3, 4 and 5 would
be accessed from the cul-de-sac, but unit 1 will access off of
People keep talking from the audience, hard to tell who is talking.
Sandra Hash- Rick, do you have any statistics of any accidents happening in this area?†
Joe Sanders- We havenít had any accidents in this area.† If it is R-2, eventually, and you put condos in this area, what happens if they arenít selling and they want to come back and have these as rental properties do they have to come back for a rezoning request or not?
Sandra Hash- No.
Joe Sanders- Thatís a problem, because we have rentals at the end of the street that Cascio owns.† We donít have problems down there, but for lack of a better way of saying this, they are rented to lower income people.† They have to have a place to live too, but they are crossing over to the convenient store through our properties.† We are concerned about our property values.† We also have concerns about the road, weather conditions on the road, traffic speeds and visibility.† I worry about an increase in traffic if they turn into rental units.
Tom Burch- So, the Ellettsville
Joe Sanders- They do a fine job, itís before they hit it that it is bad.†
Tom Burch- I understand.† I would like to add, if it was R-1, how many lots were platted for this at one time Rick?
Tom Burch- If the owners wanted to go in now and build 6 lots and rent them they could already do this.† The proposed owner wants to make it a nice place, update it, and make it comparable or better to what is there now.† Heís watching the market and doesnít plan on building until he sees that change.†
Several people were talking, hard to hear, commissioners were speaking at the board table, at the same time Tom was speaking.
Rob Hood- I live at
Gerald Preusz- Is there any consideration for single family homes?
Tom Burch- I donít think so, and if the person who owns the single family home wants to rent it, he could.† This property hasnít been purchased.† The deal is contingent on the zoning change.†
Joe Sanders- But he doesnít live here, and he doesnít have the same concerns that we have.
Comments were going back and forth from the audience.
Sandra Hash- Letís try not to battle back and forth, are there any other questions from the residents?
Joe Sanders- Shouldnít the guy that owns the property be here to address the issues instead of the builders?
Sandra Hash- It is my understanding that when they hire an engineering firm itís common for the firm to represent them.†† So, Doug Curry is here to represent the petitioner.†
Gerald Preusz- I sense, that as a group, we would prefer single family units there, other than the duplexes in the area behind the development.
Sandra Hash- Do any of the commissioners have any questions for the petitioner?
Sandra Hash- Yes, that is correct.
Doug Curry- Yes, that is correct.
Sandra Hash-† They are more
Dan Swafford- Where I live, we have Capital Avenue Apartments is an example, and right before you enter Autumn Ridge.
Dan Swafford- Itís a standard practice in neighborhoods.†
Sandra Hash- Iíll give you some of the history of this
neighborhood, it has been through some trying times.† This same area was requested to become a C-3,
and they wanted to put in a video store in this area, and have a doctorís
office or something else with it.† At
that time, the East Ellettsville Area Plan states that we should try to
preserve our green ways† and the large
front yards on that corridor.† The
neighbors were very verbal of their dislike of a commercial development and
they would have to enter in front of the existing houses and so, the
Rob Hood- When we first moved into the neighborhood we were told you have one of the nicest lots in the area, but we arenít told that now.† We are concerned about our property value declining.† If this area turns into rental property, weíve lost all the value that we really had there.† It is an odd lot, and weíve done a lot of work.† We have a ravine in front of us and natural drainage in that area, and Iím concerned about the drainage in this area as well after the development goes in.† I think R-1 would be more conducive to what is surrounding the area.†
Dan Swafford- I have a question for Doug Curry, someone brought up the comments about the CITGO gas station.† Could there be any way they could in some kind of natural block on those back property lines to help block some of the lighting, or is it high enough that shrubs or pines could be used.
Sandra Hash- That would come with the site plan, there should be some landscaping and there is the huge drop off wall that would definitely need to be protected with some kind of landscaping.
Rob Hood- I worked with the owners and they did put in some pine trees, but it will be years before they have any affect.† There is a concrete wall at the back of the station, I donít know if a fence could be constructed above that, I think this is a safety issue.†
Dan Swafford- How high is the wall?
Rob Hood- Itís 18 to 20 feet tall.
Sandra Hash- We requested a landscape plan when the station was put in, and Iíve asked about it several times.† I donít know why it hasnít been put in.
Dan Swafford- Doug, do you think something could be done about this, when the development goes in.
Doug Curry- We do have a common line, there with the gas station.† Itís only 255 feet long, the west boundary line, so we couldnít really get into blocking light where it sounds like the neighbors are requesting.†
Sandra Hash- The safety on the wall is what heís talking about.
Dan Swafford- Iím looking at Google Earth at your property, and I donít think they can construct anything to help you (Rob Hood).†
Doug Curry- ††Itís been my experience with tall walls like that, I always thought that was automatically covered by zoning rules and regulations as far as the 36Ē or 48Ē fence along this area.† I donít know if you have this in your code or not.
Dan Swafford- Thereís nothing there, other than a drop off?† This is something we definitely need to look into.† Unit one, how do you propose getting to this lot from the road, where would that be located?† Would it be in the upper or lower part?
Doug Curry- The lower part.†
Several commissioners talking at the same time Doug is speaking, I canít make out the comments.
Doug Curry- The driveway would be about in the middle of the lot.
Sandra Hash- Have we answered everyoneís questions?
Terry Baker- We arenít dealing with the plans for the buildings, we are dealing with just the land itself.
Doug Curry- Tom has said it would be a similar building, maybe even a little bit better.† It will be a similar building, we are trying to show that it wonít be much different.†
Dan Swafford- Someone had mentioned drainage issues.† Before they go through this, they would have to apply for a grading permit before they break ground.
Doug Curry- We would comply with Rule 5 and IDEM rules and all of the storm water retention areas.† The retention area would be by lot 4 along the highway.†
Sandra Hash- So, even though there is a wall all away across there, there is enough of a dip to hold water?
Doug Curry- We would make a retention area and the runoff from the proposed cul-de-sac.† The front of the lots would drain onto the road and that water would go into curb and storm inlets and end up in the retention area.††† ††
Jennifer Gunderman- I live in the duplex unit.† I was approached in May by Kevin West.† He said he was thinking of purchasing the property and at that time he did show me some plans, they did not have 5 buildings on it, it only had 4.† I want him to keep the established trees on the lot.† My other concern was the rental aspect of it.† Tom and I both own our house.† He had some extensive ideas.† Heís not come back to talk to Tom or I.†
Joe Sanders- In reference to the drainageÖ. the retention pond for the units we butt up against 46, however unit 1 would be at the back of Tomís residence.† There are two storm water drains and they are in front of my house.† I end up with all of the neighborhood water coming into it.† Even lot 1 will go into the ravine area in front of Robís house or straight down the street to the storm drains in front of my house.†
Sandra Hash- Doug do you want to address the drainage for lots 1, 2 and 3.
Doug Curry- According to the topographic map the building on lot 1 slopes towards Mr. Hoodís property and there hasnít been any, at least on the preliminary plat, any consideration for diverting that water any other direction.†
Sandra Hash- Connie go ahead and turn off the recorder, so we can all look at the map and talk about the drainage.† The residents were also asked to come up and view the map with the commissioners and Doug Curry.
To summarize what the rest of you didnít hear Doug reviewed the storm water installations and how they would drain to the pond.† There is no drainage there now, so they actually could see an improvement.† The water would be retained within the development, so no additional water would be added to the adjacent properties.†
Doug Curry- Bynum Fanyo uses the 100 year flood calculation for drainage.
Sandra Hash- This piece of property has been unimproved for quite some time and the current owner hasnít done a good job of keeping it mowed and maintained.† As with any vacant property they are always for sale and they are always up for development.† On the developers side this is a small development with only 5 lots to develop.† In order to pay for the storm drains, infrastructure and the roadway they have to be able to make a certain amount of money off of the property, so therefore that is what Mr. Burch is saying.† The condos are more feasible for a builder.† I do understand that it opens the door for rentals.† We have to find a happy medium for everyone.† This looks like a good plan and in order to make it work, compared to the commercial that was up a few years ago, this is an improvement.† Even with single family homes, there is no guarantee that rentals wonít come.† They do come; itís something we have to face.
Dan Swafford- With a homeownerís association too, it will help catch things.†
Is there a consideration or a motion
that would like to made on the rezone from R-1 to R-2.† This means the recommendation goes to the
Dan Swafford- I second.
Sandra Hash- Would you please do a roll call vote:
Phil Smith- YES
Terry Baker- YES
Don Calvert- ABSTAIN
Request for preliminary plat approval for 5lot subdivision, Springs Valley Condominiums, West Group LLC petitioner
Sandra Hash- Do we need to approve the preliminary plat this evening, it is on the agenda?†
Sandra Hash- Is there any documentation to be read.† I see the staff report.† I donít have anything in my packet for the preliminary plat.†
Sandra Hash- Is that still correct for four duplexes and one single family home?
Dan Swafford- Who submitted that?
Dan Swafford- Doug what is the preliminary plat suppose to be is it five?
Doug Curry- Itís five lots.†
Dan Swafford- And thatís what we just approved, right?†
Sandra Hash- Weíve approved of the Zoning.†
Dan Swafford- Is this the step we go to or does it have to go to council first for the approval of the rezoning before we approve the preliminary plat, correct?
Sandra Hash- I think that is a good question.†
Swafford- I donít think we can
approve the plat until the rezone is approved by the
I think that is a good point.† I think this would give the
Swafford- I make a motion that the
preliminary plat approval should be on the agenda for the next
Sandra Hash- There is a motion on the floor to delay the
preliminary plat approval until the rezone is approved by the
Terry Baker- Second.
Sandy Hash- Connie please roll call.
Sandy Hash- YES
Terry Baker- YES
Don Calvert- ABSTAIN
Phil Smith- YES
Sandra Hash- That wraps that up for tonight.†
I want to discuss the Proposed
I would like to ask my fellow commissioners that we keep the regular dates to meet.† This is confusing to the commissioners and the public.† We can carry on with the staff notes from the director.
Swafford- I make a motion that we do
meet in July on
Sandy Hash- Do I have a second.
Terry Baker- Second.
Sandra Hash- All those in favor of adding July 9, to the schedule, please say aye.† Aye, opposed same sign, none opposed.
What about the other dates at the beginning of the year, the changes on the meeting dates.† Letís move the dates back to the first Thursday of the month: January to the 8th and February to the 5th.† We also have a time change request.† What do you think about † ( was approved).† We can try it at and if this presents problems then we can move it back.
One more thing about the agenda.† When we have old business that deals with code revisions or internal business, we need to put this on the end of the agenda, so we can take care of the new business and not make people wait.† I want this to be the general consensus.
I think that the director is
following Robertís Rule of
Sandra Hash- We donít subscribe to Robertís Rule of
So, we are proposing a revised schedule and meeting time.†
Phil Smith- Iíll make that a motion.
Terry Baker- Second.
Sandra Hash- All in favor say aye, opposed same sign, motion carries.†
Proposed changes to the Ellettsville Town Code†
Sandra Hash- I just want to say the format for the code revisions is much better, you did a good job.† I understand this was covered on Tuesday at the last meeting to discuss code revisions.†
Terry Baker- We went through all of the codes, that have the proposed changes and made suggestions on changes, that are present in the current document.† Itís basically changing some of the wording, it softened it up and I think it was a good revision.†
Sandra Hash- She reviewed some of the changes.† I do understand there is some concern about the campaign signs or political signs.
Sandra Hash- I know we were addressed about the right to run for public office as being one of the rights you have as a citizen and to inhibit this ability was a free speech issue.† Are we going to pass the rest of the on to the attorney, or are we going to wait.
Sandra Hash- Are you talking about the costs and adding that into the lien?
Sandra Hash- Indiana Code dictates the procedure. †Indiana Code dictates the money goes back into the general fund.† So, Iím going to have to create a budget line to reimburse the street department for their expenses?
Sandra Hash- But, when it says shall be paid from the town treasurer upon sworn voucher of the street dept. that certainly sounds like the street dept. is going to give ma a bill and Iím going to pay them out of the general fund for work theyíve done.
Phil Smith- So, Indiana Code wonít let you take money from the general fund and put it into the street department or planning dept.
Sandra Hash- Indiana Code says that anytime that we enter upon property and we do lawn mowing and we file a lien then that goes back into the general fund.†
Phil Smith- Right, then once it gets back into the general fund, canít you put it back into the street department?†
Sandra Hash- No.† A budget line would have to be set up in the general fund to reimburse the MVH.† The money evens out in the flow of things with budgeting.
Phil Smith- When Jim and his department get pulled away to clean up a property, and say it might take them a week, he would like to have the money to hire someone part-time to do that job or the other requirements and jobs they do.
Sandra Hash- We have to work within our limits.† This year weíve cleaned two properties.
Phil Smith- Right.
Sandra Hash- If the council desires that is an option, but we would need to set up a budget line and appropriate that money.† This is called miscellaneous revenue and that goes to fund the budget plus other things.†
Terry Baker- And, we may not get the money even though we file a lien.†
Sandra Hash- It could take two or three years to get the liens paid or longer.† Our liens go on the tax bill, and taxes go delinquent, people walk away from properties.† The lien has to be there before the property sells.†
Terry Baker- How do you want this section written?
Sandra Hash- It needs to be changed where it says shall be paid from the town treasury upon sworn voucher thatís what needs changed.† It should just be turned into the town treasury.
Terry Baker- 2/12/2001 was the date it was changed.
Sandra Hash- We can leave this as it is.† Iíll review the Indiana Code and weíll go from there.
Sandra Hash- Itís been long standing.†
Sandra Hash- It was explained to me that this is like an outside toilet.†
Don Calvert- What he explained the other night (
Terry Baker- Frank said it was for refuge storage or anything like that is considered a vault. ††I think this way it covers a multitude of things.†
Do you have any questions from page 3.† Right of Entry.† I want to point out that our original code said we could go inside to a property, but when we looked up Indiana Code, we do not have that right, so we used Indiana Code and re-wrote that section.
Sandra Hash- So, this goes to show, that our code, doesnít always follow Indiana Code.† American Legal was supposed to make us compliant with Indiana Code if they saw something that wasnít correct.
Page 4.† Micah added a lot of different options of how to get the notices served, this will be very helpful.
Are we ready for page 5.† No corrections, page 6, on B. on site storage of motor vehicles, we talked about motor vehicles and water craft vehicles.† Page 7 we stressed if the vehicles were owned by the current owner of the property, this will help eliminate personal auto repair businesses being operated from a residence.†
Page 8, now we can start speeding up, page 9, now skip to page 13 section 9.† The word attained should be obtained.† Page 15, clarify section E.† All signage from a closed business shall be removed within 30 days after the business closes, this will be written on the sign permit, so theyíll know this up front.†
Page 16, signs behind glass, we found a lot of signs would fall within a 6Ē x 26Ē dimension.†
Phil Smith- What about these big open signs that flash?† They are bigger than 6Ē.
Dan Swafford- Have you checked on the code, for interior signs.† I think signs on the interior canít be enforced.
Please skip to page 21, sign permit fee.† We added on site business signs, and on page 22 we added back in conditional use.† Thatís it.
And the last one is parking on grass.
The section added was read for non-construction activities concerning ground cover on areas less than 1,000 square feet. †The reason this was added was to help the town enforce parking on the grass as an erosion issue.
Terry Baker- The new code changes are clearer.†
Dan Swafford- I think they are referring to septic systems.
Sandra Hash- In the Town of
Dan Swafford- I think we still have some areas in town that have septic.† The houses have been there for over 50 years, but not any in new development.
Sandra Hash- Are we ready to make a motion to approve the codes, or should we wait until the remaining codes are ready to change.† Why donít we get everything ironed out and then we could go ahead and approve of all of them at one time.
Privilege of the Floor- Non Agenda Items
Russ Ryle- Iíve been giving some thought about something, in many areas we are being faced with abandoned homes and foreclosures.† I think we should add a section into the code for unoccupied structures or residences and refer back to the state for fire codes.† Unoccupied structures need to be up kept in a reasonable manner.†
Sandra Hash- When homes are in foreclosures, some banks come out and clean up properties right away, but others donít.† When you have old tires and junk in the yard, you canít remove that stuff, you can fine them and fine them every day, but I donít think you can remove the items.†
Russ Ryle- People break in and steal copper, we need to secure and keep an eye on these properties.†
Sandra Hash- Iíll start off the first meeting next year and then
Iíll turn it over to the new President at the January 8th meeting.† I look forward to working with the
Adjournment, Terry Baker made a motion we adjourn.†