August 2, 2012
The Ellettsville, Indiana Plan Commission met in regular
session on Thursday, August 2, 2012, in the Fire Department Training and
Conference Room located at
Roll Call:†† Members present were: †Dan Swafford, President; Terry Baker, Vice President; Don Calvert, Russ Ryle, Phillip Smith and Sandra Hash.† Phillip Rogers was absent.† Connie Griffin, Director of Planning, and Rick Coppock, Bynum Fanyo and Associates, Town Engineer, were also present.†
Approval of the Minutes Ė July 12, 2012
Don Calvert commented they have not received the minutes from the July 12, 2012 meeting.
Dan Swafford entertained a motion to table approval of the July 12, 2012, minutes.† Phillip Smith so moved.† Russ Ryle seconded.† Motion carried.†
Monthly Conflict of Interest Statement
Don Calvert advised one of the properties in discussion borders his property.† Mr. Swafford explained he could still vote on the issue because it really isnít a conflict.† Mr. Calvert stated he has a personal policy if it borders him he does not act on anything.
First Assembly of God Development Plan Amendment State Road 46, Ken Cook and Justin White, Board Members
Ken Cook, Representative of the Assembly of God, explained the last time they were before the Plan Commission they discussed putting rip rap on a bank.† At the last meeting, the Plan Commission took the matter under advisement and they want to know what theyíve come up with.†† Mr. Swafford replied the recommendation was to go back to the church and ask about a retaining wall.† Mr. Cook said the church does not want to put in a retaining wall.† Mr. Swafford asked if theyíre stuck on their original request.† Mr. Cook said he feels itís the only way they know how to go and itís inexpensive.† Ms. Hash stated at the last meeting they discussed possibly waiting until September or October to find out if they could establish grass.† They also discussed the rip rap across from Smithville Telephone that is so grown up you canít see the house. †Mr. Swafford reiterated Ms. Hashís statement that the rip rap is hard to maintain over the years.† He asked Mr. Cook if they approached the church about whether or not they wanted to let it ride until September or October to establish grass.† Mr. Cook answered he did not.† Mr. Swafford stated comments were made at the last meeting that the hill was difficult to mow.† Mr. Cook said mowing the hill is almost impossible.† Mr. Swafford asked if he had any other suggestions or are they sticking with their original request.† Mr. Cook replied there are a lot of suggestions and different ways of doing it but the rip rap seemed to be the most feasible.† Theyíre trying to avoid erosion tearing up anything.†
Sandra Hash asked if Rick Coppock had explained the instructions on how to install the rip rap such as drainage under it.† Mr. Cook replied Mr. Coppock hasnít explained it but a man who has offered to do it has done a lot of it.†
Russ Ryle would like to see a revised development plan with the rip rap in place showing drainage and how the water flows into the overall stormwater plan.
Dan Swafford asked who the architect is.† Rick Coppock replied they did the site plan for the project.† There wouldnít be any revised drainage.† It would be rip rap placed on the slope and it drains exactly the same as it did before.† What was originally proposed was an erosion control blanket which allows grass to grow back up through it but there was going to be a maintenance building there at one time which had a 4í wall around it.† Thatís why there is a difference in the slope because the maintenance building is not going to be there and the wall of the maintenance building wonít be there.† So, the slope is a little bit steeper and thatís why theyíre talking rip rap.†
Sandra Hash stated the Indiana Department of Environmental Management (ďIDEMĒ) has guidelines for rip rap.† The excavation foundation is suppose be below the design elevation to allow for the thickness of the bedding material and rip rap.† There has to be a key way at the base for drainage and there has to be 4Ē of sand underneath the fabric to protect it.† Itís going to be an expensive process just to put rip rap.†
Russ Ryle explained they have to certify to IDEM that the requirements have been met.† He would like to see a detailed drawing of how theyíre going to do it.† Itís just not laying stone on bare dirt.† Itís getting somewhat complex.†
Don Calvert said his only concern is the rip rap.† He doesnít want to create something that is going to be a problem for the church ten, twelve or fifteen years from now.† He reiterated his concern is creating a problem now that is going to bite the church years down the road.
Ken Cook stated if weeds or grass come up through itís possible it could be sprayed.† Mr. Calvert asked if this could be done in a flood zone.† Mr. Coppock replied yes, they can do that.
rip rap is not something that is certified to IDEM.† Most of the time it is put in without the
sand base under it.† Itís just fabric
with rip rap on top of it.† Just because
of the slope the sand base is probably not going to hold real well.† There are places where rip rap has been used
like that, itís held up and has been there for over 20 years.† As long as you keep it maintained and keep
the weeds out of it itíll hold up.† One
place that comes to mind is an office building complex at
Sandra Hash asked why they donít follow IDEM guidelines.† Mr. Coppock replied most of the time itís installed people donít put sand underneath it.† They dig it out and put the fabric and rip rap on top of it.† If thereís a slope and sand is put on it it will keep sloughing off.† Itís hard to get a flat stable base underneath.† Itís just not done. Ms. Hash asked if the drainage is necessary.† Mr. Coppock answered heís uncertain as to what theyíre talking about in that instance.† A key way is put in to keep it from sliding.† The key way notches it at the bottom and gives it a plane.†† The trench can be sloped with the key way across it to provide some drainage out the end.† Ms. Hash said it also talks about using different sizes of rip rap and a smaller type of rip rap to fill in all the gaps.† If the sand, cloth, small rip rap and large rip rap were used itíll eliminate a lot of weeds if itís done properly.† The sand would also help filter.
Russ Ryle showed the IDEM diagram which illustrated the underlying dirt, ground level, rip rap and key way.† The rip rap is required to be below surface level with a key way.† Heís still uncertain as to what they meant by ďkey wayĒ.† Rip rap is only to be used where the slope of the ground coming down is greater than 2 to 1.††† His question is does the slope meet that requirement.† He thinks part of the slope they want to rip rap is greater than 2:1 and is too steep to use it.† Theyíre almost to the point where there has to be some type of retaining wall.† It is too steep to mow or use rip rap.
Rick Coppock outlined the location of the key way and explained its purpose.† Whether itís 2:1, 3:1 or 1:1 it can hold rip rap.† This is not a case where rip rap couldnít be used.† The slopes in Autumn Ridge are much greater than 2:1.† Mr. Swafford commented the rip rap in Autumn Ridge is not holding.† Ms. Hash commented it is definitely going to take some excavating to get the key way built up before the rip rap is put in.† Does the size of the hill have to be reduced so that the rip rap matches the same level as the surrounding areas?† Mr. Coppock replied they should scrape off some of it.† Ms. Hash commented she doesnít think it would be out of line to ask for a plan to make sure they are going to use what they should and that itís up to par.† She doesnít think INDOTís was up to par.† Mr. Ryle asked how tall the hill is.† Mr. Coppock said he doesnít know without looking at the plan.† Mr. Ryle said they need to come back with a plan showing the height of the hill, type of slope and what would be the design for putting the rip rap in.†
Dan Swafford asked how the Plan Commission members felt.† Did they want to see it on a plan?† Mr. Ryle replied it doesnít have to be a whole new plan.† Itís an amendment to the existing plan.† Ms. Hash commented itís to ensure that itís done properly and has the different sizes of stone.† Terry Baker stated before they put them through the expense of doing that they need to decide if theyíll allow rip rap.† Phillip Smith said he has no problem with it.† Mr. Baker said he has a problem with it.† Ms. Hash said sheís not fond of it because of the shape of the INDOT rip rap in Town.† Mr. Smith commented INDOT doesnít take care of their rip rap.† Mr. Ryle proposed they make the decision on rip rap when they see their plan.† Their option is to stay with grass or produce the plan knowing they may not approve rip rap.† Approval hinges on the quality of the plan they put together.† He can see where approving rip rap is a case by case basis.† As far as the highway department, ditches arenít 18í to 25í hills.† The hill is at least a 15í tall hill in spots, if not 20í.† Itís a lot more to hold up against gravity then what you do in a ditch along the highway.† The fact INDOT doesnít follow this procedure doesnít surprise him because they arenít dealing with the physical forces of a longer run on a vertical drop.† Mr. Coppock advised INDOT uses rip rap a lot for slope stability.† If you look along State Road 46 going back into Bloomington there is a ramp going south theyíve had slumping of the slope which they filled with rip rap to help hold the bank in.† Mr. Ryle said the key word is ďhelpĒ.† He doesnít think itís been completely successful.
Dan Swafford asked how they wanted to proceed.† Heís in agreement with not wanting them to have the extra cost of rip rap if they arenít going to allow it.† Will they ever be able to establish growth on the hillside?† He doesnít know.† Right now thereís no way with the weather.† Ms. Hash asked if this is going to require excavation can they bring some of the top of the hill to the bottom and smooth it out so itís not so steep.† Then they would be able to mow it.† Mr. Swafford replied if they start that then some of the bank and possibly some of the tree line would have to go.† Mr. Coppock advised they would have to go out a greater distance.† Mr. Swafford commented thereís a parking lot at the bottom and it would really change the plan.† Mr. Ryle said he would vote against rip rap but if there was a good managed plan he would vote for it.† Mr. Swafford commented itís not unreasonable to ask for a plan.† Ms. Hash asked if itís graded as in the plan and how it could be verified.† Mr. Ryle replied it would have to be surveyed.† Mr. Swafford asked Mr. Coppock if the grade is according to the plan.† Mr. Coppock replied they donít take actual shots to verify the slope.† Ms. Hash commented this is one of the problems theyíve always had. This shows the need for an independent engineer to sign off verifying the development is done as presented to the Plan Commission.† Mr. Ryle concurred.
Dan Swafford asked Mr. Cook if he would like to proceed with bringing back a plan for the proper installation of the rip rap or does he want them to vote on whether or not to modify the original plat.† Mr. Cook replied when you start having everything drawn up itís a lot of expense which may or may not benefit them.† They can still vote against or for it.† Mr. Swafford said he agrees with that.† Itís a catch 22 whether or not they ask for a plan and then they may or may not like the plan or be happy with the rip rap.† He could see where some of the commissioners donít want to vote without seeing a plan for the rip rap.† Personally, he doesnít like rip rap but if they can show it wonít be unsightly in five or ten years he can live with it.† He would rather see a retaining wall but itís an additional cost and it wasnít in the original plat.† Ms. Hash suggested they look at the plan that was presented and see how it was laid out from the beginning and what the slope was suppose to be.† She asked Mr. Coppock if it was on the plan.† Mr. Coppock replied the contour was on the plan.†
the problem is they clearly established whether Mr. Coppockís wearing a Town of
Sandra Hash wants to see what was laid out in the plan.† There was to be a garage there and if there was to be one surely it wasnít going to set on a slope.† She reiterated she wants to go back to the original plan and see why they ended up with a hill that is too steep to mow and a need for rip rap before they proceed.† Mr. Coppock commented itís up to the church but they could plant some type of ground cover on the slope.† It could be something that grows low to the ground.† Ms. Hash commented there are several types of ground cover that could serve that purpose.† Mr. Swafford stated it would probably be cheaper for the church to plant ground cover because it doesnít have to be maintained.† There are some that will stay under the weed limit and smothers out anything else that tries to grow in it.† Mr. Coppock stated it is up to the church to come back if they want to look at anything different or proceed with rip rap.
Ken Cook said the thing that bothers the church the most on the bank is trying to keep everything mowed to less than 9Ē high. †One criteria hurts them one way and another criteria hurts them another way.† Mr. Swafford knows with the ground cover there are plants that will cover it and will stay under 9Ē.† The only thing is most of them are invasive.† If you donít keep it mowed at the top and bottom theyíll spread.† Mr. Cook commented he doubts the church would be against it.† Mr. Swafford proposed the church contact the Planning Department and get a list of non-invasive vegetation.† Itíll have to be planted when it cools down in the fall. †Mr. Ryle said some of it may have to wait until spring depending on the species.† Mr. Swafford asked Connie Griffin to search for something that can be planted in the fall.† Heís afraid to leave the bank bare over the winter.† Mr. Baker said it also needs to be drought resistant.† Mr. Coppock said they could also look at silt fence staggered up the hill so that it limits the area of flow to help maintain the bank.† Ms. Hash asked when the vegetation took hold could it be removed.† Mr. Coppock said yes, the silt fence could be pulled out.† Ms. Hash reiterated she still wants to see the original plan.† Mr. Swafford asked that they remember to bring the original plan to the next meeting and provide copies to all Plan Commission members.† This issue will be brought up at the next meeting.† Mr. Coppock said he can email the plan to everyone.†
Phillip Smith commented they could use a mixture of rip rap and ground cover.† Once the ground cover starts growing itís going to cover the rip rap and they wouldnít see it anyway.† Ms. Hash stated if they could get a ground cover to take it would save them a lot of money on rip rap.† Mr. Ryle said his concern is given the severity of the slope the rip rap, unless itís really big flat rock thatís not rolling itís going to come down hill.† Mr. Coppock advised when they put it in they push it down and it all locks into place.† If itís put in right it doesnít move.† Ms. Hash asked how they put the rip rap down without tearing the fabric.† Mr. Coppock replied the fabric is more like felt and will mould to it.† For the most part rip rap doesnít have sharp points on it Ė itís rounded edges.† Mr. Ryle said he has used landscape cloth which is akin to felt at his house and the best he ever got out of it was five years because it deteriorates.†
explained to Mr. Cook heís to go back to the church and discuss the thoughts
and suggestions of the Plan Commission and then come to the next meeting.† In the meantime, Mr. Coppock has electronic
files of the plat he will email to everyone.†
If there are any questions theyíll proceed from there.† They have a little time and they want to make
the best decision for all concerned.† †They are a focal point of the Town and they
want to make sure everything looks good on the site.† Mr. Cook advised he will work with Ms.
Griffin to figure out what to do on the slope.†
Mr. Swafford asked Mr. Coppock how hard it would be to get the
elevation.† Mr. Coppock stated it would
cost $300-$400.† Mr. Ryle asked if thatís
part of the project cost or Townís cost to verify things are done right.† Mr. Swafford asked if there is an agreement
Dan Swafford entertained a motion to table the First Assembly of Godís Development Plan.† Terry Baker made a motion to table the First Assembly of Godís Development Plan.† Russ Ryle seconded.† Roll Call Vote:† Dan Swafford Ė yes; Terry Baker Ė yes; Don Calvert Ė yes; Russ Ryle Ė yes; Phillip Smith - yes and Sandra Hash Ė yes.† Motion carried 6-0.
Griffin, Planning Department, presented the plan submitted by Taco Bell.† Taco
Phillip Smith asked what is located where the patio area will be.† Ms. Griffin responded sidewalk.† The patio will stay within the curb area.† They will remove the sidewalk and install a patio.† This is a new building design and adding the patio is another way to make it a nice looking building.† Ms. Hash asked if the existing sidewalk will remain the same width.† Ms. Griffin replied the footprint remains the same.† Mr. Ryle said he noticed there is a 10í 5Ē mark and asked if it is the width of the concrete area in front of the building.† Ms. Griffin replied yes.† Ms. Hash added it includes the sidewalk.† Mr. Ryle asked if thatís the existing footprint.† Ms. Griffin answered yes.† There is 4í between the tables and the bushes.† There is nothing that will prevent pedestrian traffic.† Mr. Ryle asked if the landscaping bushes between the tables and the drive-thru are at ground level or on a planter box to further delineate for the safety of children.† Ms. Griffin answered when she drove through there today itís up from where the drive-thru is located and there is curbing.†
Dan Swafford entertained a motion to approve the plan for a patio at Taco Bell.† Phillip Smith made a motion to approve the plan for a patio at Taco Bell.† Don Calvert seconded.† Roll Call Vote:† Dan Swafford Ė yes; Terry Baker Ė yes; Don Calvert Ė yes; Russ Ryle Ė yes; Phillip Smith - yes and Sandra Hash Ė yes.† Motion carried 6-0.
Griffin, Director of Planning, advised the next item is not an agenda item.† However, pursuant to ß2.4(D) of Legislative
Procedures, items that come before the Plan Commission which were not on the
agenda may be added by motion of the Plan Commission and a majority vote.† To be placed on the agenda is an encroachment
and utility easement concern at
Dan Swafford entertained a motion to add it to the agenda.† Russ Ryle made a motion to add it to the agenda.† Phillip Smith seconded.† Roll Call Vote:† Motion carried.
Griffin, Director of Planning, explained a draft of a resolution for a right to
encroach has been prepared by Darla Brown, Town Attorney.† It is being prepared for the August 13, 2012,
Town Council meeting.† The encroachment
issue came about through survey findings because the property was in the
process of being sold.† They found the
home encroached 3.8 feet over the side yard set back but the current
requirement is 10 feet.† It is actually
1.3 feet into a drainage easement.† The
Street Commissioner has visited the site and theyíve been in discussion with
the Town Engineer.† The petitioner is
Kurt Sieboldt of
Don Calvert asked if he needed to leave the meeting because of a conflict of interest.† Ms. Griffin replied technically a conflict of interest does ask that the person leave the meeting room.† Mr. Swafford told Mr. Calvert it was fine if he remained in the audience.† Ms. Hash advised he has no financial interest or gain in this property.
read a summary of the resolution titled ďSetback
Encroachment and Utility Easement Encroachment at
Swafford entertained a motion to recommend to the Town Council that the
proposed resolution regarding a setback encroachment and utility easement
Russ Ryle wanted to discuss Don Calvertís abstention for conflict of interest.† They are a seven member board.† He was thinking it takes four affirmative votes to pass something.† Ms. Hash asked if it was a majority of those present.† Ms. Griffin replied that was her understanding.† Mr. Baker said Mr. Calvert wasnít present but hadnít left.† Mr. Ryle stated when he read the rules it stated a majority of the membership was needed to pass a motion.† Ms. Griffin said ß2.8(A) of Legislative Procedures states, ďA requirement that resolution be passed by a majority vote of the Plan Commission means a majority vote of the all members which is a vote of four members.† Any requirement that an ordinance or resolution be passed by a two-thirds vote of the Plan Commission means at least a two-thirds vote of all the members which is a vote of five members.Ē† Mr. Swafford explained the Town Council proposed the resolution so they didnít really pass the resolution.† Itís a proposed resolution thatís going to be sent to Town Council.† Is that considered a resolution?†
Russ Ryle had another point of order.† Generally, the Plan Commission recommends to Town Council.† Basically, a lack of vote means it goes to Town Council without recommendation, not that it canít go to Council?† Mr. Swafford noted the motion stated ďthey recommend to the Town Council that the proposed resolution regarding the set back encroachment be approved.Ē† Mr. Ryle said what the Plan Commission is doing, in affect, is sending it to Town Council without a recommendation.† Mr. Swafford stated thatís the way it will have to be stated.† Ms. Hash noted it could state it was a positive vote of the members present.† Mr. Swafford instructed Ms. Hash to note it was 3 to 2 vote for approval but it was not the majority so it goes to the Town Council without recommendation.
Russ Ryle commented as-built is something that has caused the Town grief for a number of years.† When you look back at the number of construction related issues that have come before the Plan Commission and Town Council such as complaints and non-compliance issues, a number of them could have been headed off on the front if an as-built inspection was done.† What is the feeling of the group of instituting an as-built requirement?† Mr. Swafford said heís always thought it was a great idea to have as-builts.† Heís worked for the university for 15 years and they always got as-builts.† Ms. Hash asked him to define as-builts.† Mr. Swafford defined as-builts as noting any changes or deviation from the original plat after the project has been completed.† They would have a plat with as-builts marked on it.† Itís a correction sheet.† Mr. Coppock explained it gives an as-built drawing of what is actually there and it notes the changes between what the design originally was and the finished product.† For example, if something is to be three feet deep and itís 2.75 feet deep then that would be marked on the set of drawings and drawn back in to the correct elevation.
said Don Calvert made a good point that itís just like Taco Bell.† When they get an as-built copy of Taco Bell
the picnic tables would be penciled in.†
Mr. Coppock said you probably wouldnít shoot the picnic tables.† Mr. Swafford said the picnic tables are
permanent and theyíre set in concrete.†
Mr. Coppock explained the tables could still be removed.† They would shoot the concrete and other physical
structures.† Ms. Hash stated when this
was discussed before they had agreed they wanted the as-built and it would be
tacked on to the building inspection.† Mr.
Coppock said there wouldnít be an as-built on a house.† Ms. Hash asked if it would be more of a
commercial facility.† Mr. Swafford
answered it would be the plat because they donít care whatís inside the
house.† Ms. Hash said Mr. Calvert had a
back yard with no problems and this addition came in up the hill from him and
then he had flooding issues.† If the
as-built was verified would that guarantee the flooding might not have happened
or how would it affect it?† Maybe the
plan was faulty from the beginning and was going to create more runoff.† Mr. Swafford confirmed Mr. Coppock stated
earlier that as-builts werenít used in
Russ Ryle said he is more interested in as-builts as to the slope, drainage and required improvements such as landscaping, sidewalks, lights, etc., including setbacks for the project.† Such as the buildings are the right place, right setbacks, etc.† He is looking for someway to prevent finding there is a completed structure 3.6í too close to something in the future.† Mr. Coppock commented that would not be part of this type of as-built.† Mr. Ryle stated that would be part of the ongoing inspection process.† When the foundation is laid all that has to be done is to take someone out there with a tape measure and if the foundation isnít correct then it should be fixed.† Mr. Swafford stated in the apartment complex near him there was a place when they were going through the plat approval process that was to have an emergency vehicle road in the back.† After everything was said and done itís not there.† It was never taken to the Plan Commission or anywhere else it was just changed at some level.† He thinks the Planning Director probably changed it.† Ms. Hash stated the Planning Director was the person who insisted on the emergency vehicle road.
they need ongoing on-site inspections.† He
is wanting to make sure projects are built to plan.† When the Plan Commission approves a plan,
there is no guarantee what goes in the ground is going to meet those
requirements.† Mr. Swafford commented
thatís why they have Rick Coppock and Connie Griffin.† Mr. Ryle said theyíve heard three times
during this meeting nobody goes and checks these things.†† Mr. Coppock explained that really comes back
to departments such as utilities who oversees their lines and inspects water
and sewer lines during construction.† In
Terry Baker made a motion to adjourn.† Don Calvert seconded.† Dan Swafford adjourned the meeting at 7:15 p.m.†